September 2007

Eman Lam 林二汶 and Ellen Joyce Loo 盧凱彤 met in a band competition in 2000 and formed a band. When they signed with People Mountain People Sea 人山人海 in 2002, they named the band at17. The music of at17 has both a freshness and raw energy to it: the freshness of folk and the raw energy of electronic beats. Eman and Ellen both have distinctive vocals: Eman’s voice is deeper and more velvety and Ellen’s voice is more crystalline. at17 write some of their own songs or collaborate with local songwriters. Many of their songs, like The best is yet to come, have an English hook: ‘To kiss someone, to hug someone…’ In live shows, at17 also perform an interesting selection of English songs, Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah, Radiohead’s Paranoid Android and Creep, Julia Fordham’s Porcelain…. HKpop wanted to know more about Eman’s and Ellen’s views on the English in their songs and their live English song performances. We interviewed at17 in Cantonese and this is a translation of what they shared with us.

How did you get started in the music business?

Ellen : In 2000, my older brother and I formed a group and entered a Tom Lee acoustic competition, 原音 2000 , where I met Eman. We were the youngest contestants there, and people joked that we should form a band. At that time, Eman was teamed up with her brother Chet Lam 林一峰 and they were already doing mall shows, like in Gold Coast and Times Square. We started hanging out together, then Eman recorded a demo for a foreigner, who was only staying in HK for a short time and he needed a female vocal for his demo. Somehow the demo went to Anthony Wong 黃 耀明 and he liked her voice, so he asked her to come over and sing for him. Eman asked me to come along as well, it was only later we knew that it was an audition, that was in 2002, and we were 15 and 19

Eman : I did a demo for a friend and Anthony Wong heard the demo so I went for an audition. At the time, I was already doing mall show with Chet Lam, for the money and also stage experience. We also did a lot of cover versions of English songs.

How did you come up with the name at17.

Ellen : Chet Lam liked the song a lot and it’s also the median of our age, we went through a lot of other different weird names for the band, but we settled for at17.

Eman : Anthony Wong chose the name at17, because it had English and a number. It’s unique. I was 19 years old at the time and Ellen 15, so 17 was the median. It was only later that we learned about the song, and the meaning of the lyrics.

You’ve also recorded a Cantonese version of the song. How did that happen?

Ellen : Chet Lam chose the song At seventeen because he likes Janis Ian and wanted us to do a cover version. He wrote the Cantonese lyrics, not a true English translation because when you use Cantonese, it’s difficult to translate literally. The Cantonese lyric has got some Hong Kong flavour. For example, the part about telephone ringing….如電話響有了生機熱切計劃沒結尾 (‘When the phone rings, it’s like I come alive, I make plans enthusiastically, but never finish them’). It’s a song about youth and being young, someone has just passed childhood and starts to see things differently. It became our theme song because we felt that at 17 or 18, people start to see themselves differently. Emotional and rebellious. The first time I sang it I didn’t quite understand the meaning of the song. It was only from the live concert 2 years ago that I started to know more the song, more about myself. ‘I learned the truth at 17’ - it’s the most truthful and meaningful part of the lyric… For all the young women, beautiful or not, there are times when they all feel they are alienated from others, or uncertain about themselves.

Eman : 17 is a strange age, it’s something that people younger than 17 look forward to, like a new experience. Now at around 25, I start to know that at 17, I became aware of myself as a person. The lyric still works for me and Ellen, it affects our lives. We did not understand the lyric at the time of recording the song, I guess ignorance is also the characteristic of those at the age of 17. Chet Lam is a super fan of Janis Ian. He kept the first line, because it is a big statement, really like the thesis statement of the whole song. you learn something about growing up, interpreting critical incident and magnifying the trivial events as the most important events of your life. Ellen didn’t understand the lyric at all, she was used to listening to English songs, so she didn’t understand the use of Cantonese in Cantopop. We were in Tom Lee, checking out musical instruments, and I tried to explain to her, but I only understood half of the lyric myself. Our life experience was different then, it was simply not possible to understand except by looking back as an older and more experienced person.

How would you describe your music?

Ellen : Pop, electronic folk. I can’t describe the sound in a few words. You have to see us live, the chemistry is strongest on stage. Behind the stage, Eman and I have different opinions. It’s only on stage that we are at17.

Eman : We don’t have a particular style, we try different style and everything, dance, post rock, emo rock. You can’t just use the same tone to interpret every song, it’s like telling stories, you can use different tones and styles to present different stories. No good actor uses the same tone to deliver all the lines. For example, if you are telling a sad story, if you use a Bossa Nova style, you can lighten up the sadness a bit. Over the years, we have put more variety into our sound, using more guitar sound - both electronic and acoustic. The differences in guitar sound can create variety in the tone. And there’s more use of harmony vocal tracks. We are trying to use the minimum to create the most powerful sound effects. In a way, we are quite limited by our resources. For example, in live performances very often there are only the two of us, so there is percussion and guitar, but what you do with the two instruments is something else. With studio recording, we are more cautious because there are more musicians involved. For live performance, we have to consider the manpower we have. We only use a band for the big shows, very often there are only me and Ellen. In a way, our limited manpower influences our musical expression. We enjoy doing live performances, because of the immediate response to and from the audience. The interface is different, so you want to make something different.

Are you ‘alternative’? ‘Indie’? ‘Mainstream’?

Ellen : The mainstream is just K-songs, but there is always space for alternative music styles. You can’t just have one single style of music. We are not alternative. We are trying to be mainstream as well, but if we are too mainstream and too market-driven, there will never be any new elements. We have struggled with our music style over the years, but now we are more focused on the quality of our music. We have sold less albums over the years. The first album (Meow, Meow, Meow) was the best seller, and then we sold less. It could be that the industry has really not been doing well. But now we are more confident about our music. We have to be satisfied with our music first, and then think about the sales volume. Basically we try to use only songs composed by ourselves or by our friends. We do the music and we are best at doing gigs. Let the record company worry about the marketing.

Eman : We don’t try to guess what the market wants. Different musicians on the market are actually trying very different things in every album. However, the market might choose to highlight the same or similar elements. Even the Twins have a lot of different music styles on their albums, because they have a very strong production team. After having been in the business for a while, we have a different view of the market. The market should not be our main concern. Hong Kong is a very strange society. People are led by trends. It’s possible to create a new trend. With just 1 guitar, you can create so many different sounds and create a trend. Once a trend is established, people follow and want to participate in it. Other than the mainstream, there are so many other musicians working on different types of music, like Joytrendysound, My Little Airport, Pixel Toy. But fans are not eager to appreciate different music. It is not difficult to be popular, but it’s difficult to make songs to the mass popular taste. We are not mainstream or indie, we are somewhere in the middle, we just want to share with others. You have to be honest with your music. We are just ordinary young people making music. I guess you can say we are pop, because we are talking about ordinary people’s lives, not weird psychology or anything. Of course, getting on TV and hosting the Jade Solid Gold programme helps. After all, TV is the mass media. But what is indie? Being poor? Having to struggle to release your CD? We are the lucky few, but we are also singer-songwriters. We believe in original work. We also like to sing other people’s songs, but there is nothing better than singing your own songs. It is more about self expression. The main point is, you have to like the songs you are singing. Whether they are your songs or other people’s songs, it doesn’t matter. When you like a song, you can give it soul when you are singing it. We did 薛凱琪 ( 小?谷之 1234), Joni Mitchell’s A Case of You, Damien Rice’s Delicate, these are songs we like. It’s the charm of the song, if you sing it with heart, you give it soul and charm and magic.

Who has influenced your music?

Ellen : We are very much influenced by Anthony Wong, because he lent us a lot of English albums and songs to listen to when we started out, like The Cure, Suede, Julie London, I didn’t know these singers until Anthony Wong introduced them to us. Anthony Wong must be the guy in HK who listened to most music. Our bass player, CM, he was in the bands Site Access, TaiTauFat ( 大頭佛 ) and now Salty Soggy Sour 鹹濕酸 . When he gave his CD to Anthony Wong, Anthony said he had already bought it. Anthony Wong just likes different kinds of music, and listens to all kind of music. He even bought CDs that were made in small quantities, like 200 or 300. He supports local indie bands a lot, and he keeps an open mind about music. People Mountain People Sea isn’t a big record label. We recorded Meow Meow Meow and Kiss Kiss Kiss in the living room. People Mountain People Sea used to be in Bridges Street ( 必列者士街 ) in Central, near all those printing shops, so we had to record our albums in the middle of the night. You should listen to Jason Choi’s 蔡德才 single 美麗無常 on the Pretty Happy & Gay album. There are sounds of birds chirping in the song. That’s because it was 4 a.m. and the birds just started chirping non stop. It’s not a not special effect…

Eman : Chet Lam had a strong influence on our music, especially during the first two years, with the new energy. I listen to a lot Taiwanese and English songs, but not Canto pop. Barry Manilow, Holly Cole, Joni Mitchell, Julia Fordham, 陳淑樺 (Sarah Chan), 潘越雲 (Michelle Poon), 陳綺貞 (Cheer Chan), Jay Chou 周杰倫 , Justine Timberlake are my favourites. I like the way that they can put new elements into pop songs, so that everyone can enjoy them. Jay’s got attitude.

You do a number of English songs live, but not on your studio albums. Why?

Ellen : We were planning an album covering only English songs that we like, acoustic versions. But we spent a lot of time on clearing the copyright and the timing didn’t quite work out. There is no copyright if we are performing live, so we can choose songs that we really like. But to put them on a live album is something else. Copyright law is a bit crazy. We did a Kylie Minogue and Madonna medley, but it was impossible to clear the copyright for Madonna’s songs, so the medley was not included in the DVD version. Right now we are working on a Mandarin album for the Taiwanese market, it is still in production but it should be out in November 2007.

Can you tell us what you feel about Hong Kong singers performing English songs?

Ellen : In a way, our fans don’t really listen to English songs. They are 17 or 18 years old and when we sing English songs, we can introduce more English songs and singers to our fans. When I was young, I listened to a lot of big band jazz, e.g. Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett; later on, I listened to Radiohead, Cranberries, Alanis Morissette. Right now, the English song market is so big. There are so many more genres and varieties. You can find anything you want. Most of the singers are also songwriters themselves, except perhaps for the very few pop idols, so there are more styles and they are more distinctive.

You put a version of Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah on your live album. How did you come to perform that song?

Ellen : I fell in love with Jeff Buckley’s version and the way he played the guitar, the selection of notes, it’s poetry. I arranged the song. It was my dream. When we performed at AsiaWorld-Expo 香港亞洲國際博覽館 , I just wanted to sing the song that I had been playing in my head constantly. Leonard Cohen is poetry. When we sang Julia Fordham’s Porcelain at Twins’s live concert, our fans went out to buy Julia Fordham’s album. They discussed it with us in the online forum and thanked us for introducing such a great singer to them. It is just because they liked our version and then wanted to look for the original as well. When we sing English songs, we are not just trying to sell more. We are not at that stage, we just want to reach out to the audience and share with them songs that we love. It is kind of like doing those mall shows back when we started out

How about Radiohead’s Creep?

Ellen : It was the first song that we did in 2001, at a CR2 concert, I think. Someone at People Mountain People Sea chose the song, but I don’t remember clearly who. It was our first show and it brought back the memory, that’s why it was chosen again

How are your versions different from the originals?

Ellen : It depends on the song. When we sing John Mayer’s No Such Thing, it’s sung by two girls, so the feel is definitely different. We try to be comfortable with the songs we sing, not just cover them. When we are comfortable with the songs, there is already something individual in them. We have to listen to the songs and then re-create the chords and everything, so it’s not 100% correct. And sometimes the slight differences sound good as well, and that helps create our individual sound.

Eman : We usually rearrange the songs we cover, sometimes because of the limited manpower, or maybe we can’t manage the technical aspect. When we rearrange the songs, we give them our own personality. We sing them with a different tone. Sometimes the technical limitation of a two-woman band can give new direction to the arrangement. But sometimes we do stick to the original song. It really depends on the song. We start from the song. What is the best way to perform the song? When we are rearranging, we restructure the songs, like cutting away certain parts or move different parts of the song around. The restructuring is in the details. We don’t do it for the audience. We do it to make the songs comfortable to our ears, for ourselves. The audience don’t come to shows with a critical mind. It’s not an examination. It’s a performance for enjoyment. I guess except for the hard core fans. There is really no pressure. Fans may go and find the original versions and then hear the differences we made in the arrangement or interpretation. Nowadays, people don’t really listen to English songs anymore, especially young people. So they are really not experienced, but they are learning about different kinds of music.

Is there anything about your versions that is especially ‘ Hong Kong’?

Ellen : Hong Kong sound? Hongky, like they say? We are not conscious that we are trying to create a Hong Kong style. We are Asian style, nowadays. Young people like us, are Asian. We are not trying to make the English songs Cantopop. For example, the song Can’t get you out of my head - we went to Shanghai and we could only bring a bongo and an acoustic guitar, so we just performed with those two instruments. People said we radically changed the song, but it’s just our instinct, not a gimmick. When we performed in Holland with Pixel Toy in 2005, at the China Festival, it was a 45 minute set and we sang Radiohead’s Paranoid Android with just 2 acoustic guitars. After the show, some Dutch guys asked at the counter if they had our CD with that song on it. They just wanted our version of the song. I am happy that Dutch people appreciated two Hong Kong girls arranging and singing the song differently.

Eman : Not a lot of HK singers sing English songs. If you do, then you sound foreign to the audience. If you say Hong Kong style, it might be in the pronunciation of the English lyrics, but we articulate carefully. If there’s no problem with the pronunciation then you can’t really say we have a Hong Kong style. But I notice that Hong Kong pop is more melodic. There is a smoothness in the songs and music.

Some of your Cantonese songs have English hooklines…

Ellen : You can say this is our special characteristic as well.

Eman : The linguistic mix is interesting, but we are not ambitious, just trying to find the most appropriate way to express ourselves. Like the line ‘Never been kissed’. How do you actually say it in Cantonese without sounding silly? The English phrase is much more expressive, concise and to the point.

What do think of Chet Lam’s English album, Camping?

Ellen : Chet Lam is revolutionary in his conception of his English album, Camping, he first did several concerts at the Shouson Theatre 壽臣劇院 and then released the album. The impact was much stronger, because he shed the burden of the original songs. He just did his own arrangements and presented them as new songs.

Eman : He is good at tuning all the songs to his tone and style. He has belief in himself and the songs he sings. From the arrangement, you can see that he is also trying to use the minimum to create the maximum effect. I hope he can set a trend by releasing an English album. I hope more people will follow in his footstep and do similar projects. In a way, what he is doing is really exploring new directions and looking at English songs from his point of view.

Do you think people can learn English from English songs?

Ellen : Listen to songs and learn English? You can’t learn grammar from songs, you have to read books to learn grammar. To fit the rhythm and sound of the song, the writer might not use the most appropriate grammar in the lyrics. I understand that. You can learn culture from songs, but not grammar.

Eman : You can definitely learn English from listening to songs, especially pronunciation. Not the vocabulary at the beginning, but the sound of the words. Singing the songs is like practicing speaking. When you like songs, you get to learn the lyrics and of course the English as well. It’s like people who like Korean pop songs. They have no idea what the songs are about, but they are getting the feel of the sound of spoken Korean.